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X100S 1.03 Firmware Available


ChrisOwens

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Everyone seems to be having a go at biscuit for asking a straight forward question to a simple 'bug' for want of a better word. It is apparent on my x100, as described in bright conditions and small appertures and other forums have discussed the same.

There's no hijacking going on, just has this bug been sorted or formally recognised and is there a pool of users with a x100s who can elaborate on its impact for them in real world shooting...

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Here I am with my persistent nagging question: does this update fix the 'aperture dance' problem?

I watched the video, however, this is normal behavior for a compact live view camera (system and fixed lens). All Fuji cameras I know do work like this. So I'm afraid I don't see a "fix" for this on the horizon. In bright light, live view always adapts the aperture in order to measure exposure more quickly and to adapt the live histogram. It doesn't do this in MF mode, because Andy Westlake of DPR (and others) demanded that MF should always operate at the fully open aperture setting (in order to limit DOF when focussing), so Fuji changed that. Automatic focussing has to be performed at open aperture, too, in order to be accurate, while exposure metering may or may not happen fully open, depending on brightness. Finally, there's the working aperture that the camera will set when half-pressing the shutter, after focus and exposure have been established.

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Yep, but the camera is still measuring exposure, so needs live view, so needs adaptive aperture. The adaption could/should stop once you enable energy saving mode, hence disabling live view (and the histogram) in "OVF only" mode, so this may be an area that could be improved in firmware, but it won't affect too many users, as energy saving mode is mostly considered a thing to avoid (I also recommend not using it in my book).

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yeah, I can't the energy saving mode ON as I need the camera ready go from the moment I hang it around my neck until I put it back in the bag.

I'm not sure why, if you've got your aperture locked in, it needs to be flexing in order to calculate exposure; seems counter-intuitive.

Since Fuji credits the X100 with 0.01 sec shutter delay, what the hell kind of set up are they using to get that figure?

shutter lag claim

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As I said, live view, auto-focussing/manual focussing and final exposure measurement may each need different aperture settings that may or may not match the working aperture that was set by the user or the camera. So in a worst case scenario, the camera has to go through 3 different aperture states before locking the working aperture (state number 4).

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Well and good. But the thing is, and what hardly anyone here has either run the test for or accepted on my word, is that in the circumstances I've described, as well as the guys over at DPR, the shutter delay due to jitter is substantially longer than it is in other situations.

Forget that video; if you don't believe it, wait for a cloudless sunny day and try it for yourself. I realize this will cause a sinking in the pit of many peoples stomachs, but it is what it is.

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Of course, the ways/distances between the 3-4 different apertures I mentioned are longer on bright days with bright light. Is has always been this way with all X series cameras, and it will be more pronounced with fast lenses than with slower ones.

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So on optimal shooting days, days of clear skies and full sun, and when shooting for DOF, someone working with an X series camera must expect a half second delay? That's just bullshit.

You know, when I was shopping the X100 I was aware of the slow AF problems, but it didn't concern me because I knew I would never use it. In 15000+ shots I never have, not once, because avoiding lag is of supreme importance to the way I work.

I was also aware of Fuji's claim of 0.01 sec. shutter delay, and this was a major factor in my deciding to purchase.

To be perfectly honest, I'm feeling screwed; I feel that Fuji has pulled a bait-and-switch on me. In vital ways, the camera has not only not delivered as promised, it has severely disappointed.

And now that, after everything else, Fuji may not honor the warrantee because of a legal quibble, well that's just the cherry on top.

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@Biscuit, Could you kindly start your own dancing shutter thread and invite people who are interested to it. I don't think the majority consider this issue a life threading, show stoping situation. It seems that you hijack every other thread here and go on and on about it...Do you actually own an X-100s, do you just sit and click on the shutter waiting for something odd to happen?! Is this issue stoping you from taking photos in the real world to the point of getting obsessed about it?!

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Shutter lag is here the time between pressing the shutter - after priming the camera by half-pressing the shutter - and the camera actually taking the shot. Priming the camera in anticipation of the decisive moment is a well-known and commonly used best practice in photography. The X100(S) is pretty fast in this regard, definitely faster than Leica M cameras, to name a prominent example.

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@biscuit I'm not sure I follow here ... but then again, maybe I'm just feeding the troll with some good old fashion logic.

You bought a X100 and are complaining about the lag because "avoiding lag is of supreme importance to the way I work" and yet you've taken over 15,000+ shots with it? You're OK with slow AF but not slow shutter delay under certain conditions? I don't get it. It can't be that important if you suffered through that many shots. If it was so important, why didn't you return it or sell the camera and get the gear that better suits your shooting style? If you're using your camera to make a living then it might be wise to invest in something that actually works for you. Have you tried other cameras? Maybe it's time to move on?

@ChrisOwens - thanks for the link. Going to update my X100s tonight.

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All the posts Im reading now Im googling this after you hijacked the other post and are attempting to hijack this one are that it only happens when the EVF live view is active. Maybe find out the truth of this and move on?

That's is not the case with the X Pro 1 - though I can't comment directly on the X100s.

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Everyone seems to be having a go at biscuit for asking a straight forward question to a simple 'bug' for want of a better word. It is apparent on my x100, as described in bright conditions and small appertures and other forums have discussed the same.

There's no hijacking going on, just has this bug been sorted or formally recognised and is there a pool of users with a x100s who can elaborate on its impact for them in real world shooting...

It was widely discussed as a "bug" by some X100 owners, which is what led to an understanding of the circumstances that can cause it. It is not apparent all the time, which is why some people may not have noticed it, since the wait for AF lock often masks it. It is most notable when using manual focus (pre focusing), when one would expect the shutter to be instant, when in fact in the circumstances described there will be a lag.

I find it tiresome that if someone happens to mention a problem such as this one, there is the usual shrill response of denial, finger pointing, and the ever helpful "use a different camera". Having spent £1000 on the camera they already have, perhaps they might expect Fuji to make it work consistently?

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It's fine for biscuit or anyone to complain about this and not be happy. My beef was with singling out Arias for not mentioning a "flaw" that he has no obligation to or may not even have come across. And also impuning his honesty and independence by suggesting he's bending to Fujis PR mafia.

That aside, I see a healthy debate and not really attacking Biscuit and others as such. There's clearly a reason for this shutter "dance" so far as I can see and I don't imagine Fuji can do much to fix it so the answer would presumably be a traditional DSLR?

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Depending on the style of shooting, it can be a unacceptable that the shutter response time is variying and too slow. I am not talking about the shutter release time from the half-press state. In street shooting I cannot always delibrately go around half-pressing the shutter button waiting for a fast disappearing dynamic scene. It is impractical. I see a dynamic scene and I full press the shutter. When everything is set in manual mode and aperture set to f/8 - f/16 as usual in zone focusing, the full shutter response is still little too slow. I miss the moment half of my attempts. Missing the shot due to this full shutter delay is not a problem with a DSLR. I have wanted to see an improvement in this area ever since I got X100 2 years back and X-Pro1 a year ago.

Fuji X APS-C are excellent cameras for street shooting due to the small size and the image quality, but when it comes to capturing faster moments (all manual, preset focus), DSLR is better. X-cameras could be the world's best for street shooting if they reduce this delay to 1/3 and be constant in zone focusing mode. I am still hoping and waiting.

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@jdi - I see no trolling here, just good old fashoined debate and q&a...

@flysurfer - a good explenation, thanks. Put like that it makes perfect sense, even if the result is disappointing and I agree that there is likely little chance of Fuji making this a high priority. And yes, lag and delay need to be talked about as seperate things, but for ease people say 'lag' generically to describe a delay after you press the shutter.

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You bought a X100 and are complaining about the lag because "avoiding lag is of supreme importance to the way I work" and yet you've taken over 15,000+ shots with it? You're OK with slow AF but not slow shutter delay under certain conditions? I don't get it. It can't be that important if you suffered through that many shots.

you can't have read my post clearly if you are under the impression that I use AF and am OK with the lag it imposes. I was OK with the fact that the X100 has slow auto focus because I never shoot in that mode; I always use MF and prefocus to avoid it. 150000+ shots taken never using AF. Hence my need to use just those smaller apertures that bring on the aperture dance in bright light situations.

maber, go back and re-read - your statement on my comments re: Z Arias "impuning his honesty and independence by suggesting he's bending to Fujis PR mafia" is incorrect and nearly libelous in it's exaggeration.

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Of course, the ways/distances between the 3-4 different apertures I mentioned are longer on bright days with bright light. Is has always been this way with all X series cameras, and it will be more pronounced with fast lenses than with slower ones.

Hi Rico, you seem to be saying that the camera always goes though this cycle of activity when the shutter is half pressed, but that any "delay" is a function of the scene and camera settings at the time?

I can't comment directly on how all other mirrorless cameras work, although I have not noticed the same effect with the Nikon 1 system, for example.

It may well be an inherent limitation in the design of the X cameras, and therefore perhaps no "fix" can be available.

(We also may consider that SLRs can go through a full cycle of mirror movement, focusing, metering, and aperture closing and opening several times a second without an obvious "delay" to their operation when continuous shooting).

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maber, go back and re-read - your statement on my comments re: Z Arias "impuning his honesty and independence by suggesting he's bending to Fujis PR mafia" is incorrect and nearly libelous in it's exaggeration.

I think that was directed at me. I never "accused" ZA of anything, but used your (biscuit's) example of him apparently never mentioning aperture dance to question the value of blogs who have used cameras for "real world" photos.

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Ok. BTW, thanks to you & ergoforce; at least you guys understand the practical nature of the problem and have helped articulate it.

Flysurfer - have you had a chance to work with an X100s and check it for just this issue? Reports from the few people who have the X100s seem mixed, and perhaps shaded by feelings, but I think you'd be much more objective. If the delay is intrinsic to the design and corrections are not to be addressed by Fuji, then it's time to back out of the system and sell the WCL, Lensmate, etc.

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maber, go back and re-read - your statement on my comments re: Z Arias "impuning his honesty and independence by suggesting he's bending to Fujis PR mafia" is incorrect and nearly libelous in it's exaggeration.

It wasnt directed you ( I thought id made that clear), it was general statement about people who suggest the same about people like zarias who are not necessarily paid by companies but had their equipment or expensises paid for.

They owe you and I nothing, Zarias especially seems honest and ragging on him because he missed "X" sepcific issue that "Y" specific person is having under "Z" specific cirumstances is unfair at best.

ANyway, this cuts both ways with implications. I may have misread your intentions as you have misread mine or Zarias's.

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If the delay is intrinsic to the design and corrections are not to be addressed by Fuji, then it's time to back out of the system and sell the WCL, Lensmate, etc.

It does sound like its intrinsic in the design and also affects other cameras. Of course a DSLR will not have this, but wll have other intrinsic flaws - size, weight ..

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@biscuit fair enough, re-reding that it does look like im having a go specifically at you, it wasn't my intention and whilst I was trying to be verbose writing on my iphone I was also (as per usual) trying to be a little to clever.

It was a general comment with Zaris as an example - as I believe your and @artuk's comments also where.

Sorry both for any offence caused.

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Hi Rico, you seem to be saying that the camera always goes though this cycle of activity when the shutter is half pressed, but that any "delay" is a function of the scene and camera settings at the time?

Absolutely. Fuji's digital MILCs typically work like this. Here's how the X-Mount cameras do it, the X100(S) should be quite similar if not identical:

1. While NOT pressing the shutter button, the camera is constantly adapting the lens aperture to optimize it for realistic live view brightness and an accurate live histogram display. Without constantly adapting the aperture, the camera would be much slower in adjusting to quick changes of brightness in the scene (like when you pan the camera and the sun enters and leaves the image). That's why early X-Mount lenses (especially the fast 35mmF1.4) produced "aperture chatter". "Aperture chatter" was an actual performance feature: The camera was simply working very fast. However, once a rather small but very loud and vocal number of DPR forum users ignited a shitstorm regarding "aperture shatter", Fuji got scared and slowed the aperture adjustment down, reducing the performance of the camera in the process. This slowed down the camera (reducing its ability to quickly adjust in situations with quickly changing lighting conditions) but also eliminated/mitigated aperture noise emissions in the process. Btw, live view aperture adjustment was once again "secretly" sped-up a bit this spring. A few people noticed, but luckily there wan't another shitstorm. Obviously, the brighter a scene is, the more the aperture will be closed during live view, which means the is a longer way/distance to open it once the shutter is half-pressed (or pressed through) to start optimized AF and AE measurements. It also means that fast lenses will take longer than slow lenses, which is kind of ironic. ;)

2. When half-pressing the shutter, the camera starts its AF run at open aperture. Once AF has been established, it will measure exposure at either open aperture or at an aperture that will lead to optimal results for any given (bright) scene. Once focus and exposure have been established, the aperture will move to its working position, which is either the aperture set by the user in A and M modes, or the aperture determined by the camera during its exposure measurement in S and P modes. It's notable that this "real" AE measurement is often taken at an aperture that is different from the live view aperture described in paragraph 1. That's also why you won't see a live histogram after half-pressing the shutter, and the display may show a brightness that differs from the brightness of the previous live view display. Half-pressing the shutter will also apply any necessary focus shift correction for both AF and MF. In MF mode, the camera will operate at open aperture during live view – this used to be different, but Andy Westlake of DPR demanded this feature change in his X-Pro1 review, and Fujifilm complied.

3. Releasing the shutter (going from half-press to full-press) at the decisive moment will almost instantly take the shot with very little shutter lag, as everything (exposure, aperture, focus) is already in place (the camera has been primed).

Now, will the camera still work w/o these frequent aperture adjustments? Yes, it will, but with some limitations. This is basically how you (have to) shoot when you adapt legacy glass to X-Mount cameras. To do so, you have to set the camera to "shoot w/o lens". So for the camera, there is no lens (and hence no adjustable aperture) available at all. This means that shooting with legacy glass is inherently problematic, as the camera (its EVF/LCD, AE and live histogram) will take longer to adjust to quickly changing light conditions (the system has to do all of it via electronic gain control). There will also be instances where the camera's AE isn't as accurate as with an electronic XF lens. And there are plenty of instances where the live view and live histogram won't be overly accurate, because the amount of light that hits the sensor (too much or too little) is beyond the boundaries for accurate and reliable live view and live histogram performance.

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